I remember the conversation was once over Sam to have the serum so he can prove himself better but the opening sequence from The Winter Soldier serves as the best evidence to stress only on technique.
I had recently seen the sequel again & Batroc's confrontation against Steve made me think over this.
Batroc did have some edge at first since he caught Steve by surprise & even as he lost the confrontation, it was the choreography.
The fluidity from which Batroc moved gave him still the fair chance to hold himself against Steve.
I feel no similar effort was made on Sam. Even as we see him deny the serum, I feel such scene could have helped communicate it more.
The serum helps so long as the person having it also possess the skills.
Batroc did have some edge at first since he caught Steve by surprise & even as he lost the confrontation, it was the choreography.
The fluidity from which Batroc moved gave him still the fair chance to hold himself against Steve.
I feel no similar effort was made on Sam. Even as we see him deny the serum, I feel such scene could have helped communicate it more.
The serum helps so long as the person having it also possess the skills.
Commentaires
Whilst cradling the body of the woman who just tried to kill them all.
Steve watching “Captain America” punch the president and sue people.
"A racist said something once so you can't share any part of that opinion or you're a racist too!"
No.
Edit: the Sam haters are out in force today
It is a bit like Batman and Superman. Superman is all brute force because he doesn't need anything else.
I know he got your typical “workouts” in and stuff, but I don’t know that Shield taught him much in the way of close quarters combat. There’s a huge fighting style difference between him and Sharon for instance.
I could also see Shield purposefully not teaching him newer hand to hand combat tactics in order to have a fall back in case he went rogue. Sort of a “we don’t want him to know what we’re capable of teaching a non enhanced person so that he isn’t able to counter it effectively” type of thing.
In terms of what he's physically capable of? I don't see how they could stop him from learning his abilities in training or on missions. He's clearly learned a lot though, because he casually jumped into the ocean without a parachute, soloed a Quinjet, and jumped hundreds of feet onto concrete.
>There’s a huge fighting style difference between him and Sharon for instance.
Which should be expected, considering their physical differences.
>I could also see Shield purposefully not teaching him newer hand to hand combat tactics in order to have a fall back in case he went rogue
Considering how well he fought Winter Soldier hand to hand, this is clearly not the case. Also we saw their fallback in the elevator: magnetic handcuffs. Besides, for all his strength, he's still vulnerable to bullets and bombs, which they threw at him aplenty.
That said, the less than a year of training he had before WS is still nothing compared to the years of modern training and combat experience that Sam had. The SSS was the only thing that really ever game him the edge. He had vastly more stamina and strength than anyone else.
The amount of training Steve can accomplish in one week dwarfs what a normal person can accomplish.
So yes, that version of him was the most powerful in that it was the version of him not willing to hold back in a fight.
It’s comparing that what if Tony Stark stumbled upon a better iron man suit in the desert and climbed into that and continued to use that instead of making one and upgrading it himself, learning his power set.
Sam knew a few things when he had his decision.
1. If he took the serum there, his powers forever wouldn’t be “his”. They would be stolen from someone else and everything he does has that ick on it.
2. If he takes the serum, he is just continuing the cycle of hurt that Isaiah faced. The serum became an ugly symbol to him and the US governments exploitation of the “little guy”
3. He’s already dealt with his powers before, he’s a tech guy and an amazing flier. That’s his power set he knows, he doesn’t know Steve’s power set truly. He knows Steve as a friend but doesn’t know his upper limits or how to control that power. He went for the safest choice.
4. It was the safest choice. Again, Sam hasn’t always felt himself to be a perfect man. He knows that Walker was an asshole but overall a decent guy and saw how badly it corrupted him. Did he want to take that chance when in his mind, he can solve this problem with his current suit and tech?
To me, it makes sense to not take it but to have some doubts afterwards about not taking a much easier way in hindsight. Sam has doubts sometimes, that’s part of his character
After having seen Brave New World, I don't know why the Avengers didn't send Sam in to defeat Thanos while they went to get dinner.
Steve Rogers was never depicted as needing to rely on gear to win.
Yes he had the serum, but the thesis of the character is that Steve would've just been **that guy** anyway.
Sam is never given a moment where everything is stripped down and he endures and overcomes. And it's a failure of the writers, not the character concept.
They wrote him to be practically reliant on gear to keep up with threats that don't just outclass him, but for all intents and purposes make him irrelevant.
Which again, isn't a failure of the character or the actor.
But the writers really need to figure out what makes Sam Wilson an essential statement and thesis on the theme of being captain America. They skirted really close in the Disney+ but didn't commit. They watered it down even further in BNW.
But until they figure that out, unpowered Sam Wilson theoretically has too fuzzy of a high end potential ceiling because the writers are clearly scared/conflicted on just how agonizingly humanly weak he is and they can't reconcile that effectively.
* Enters solo ahead of the team (with an impossible landing, just like Steve)
* Takes down a dozen goons
* Gets an assist from a side kick
* Has to 1v1 an elite who makes him work for it
* Mission succeeds (but later finds out it was a setup)
It was pretty much beat for beat. Batroc had an advantage on skill and finesse, but Sam's opponent had size and strength.
Sam does what Steve does, just slower.
Dude can intercept cruise missles, he makes vulture look like child’s play.
This being the same Sam was like "he's not the kind of guy you save he's the kind you stop"
>Also the original suit wasn't Vibranium and he was also not paying attention to Bucky either so the grapple hook caught him by surprise.
Righhhhtt. So Sam is unbeatable and he "meant to do that" or "just got caught off gaurd".
Just stop lol
Also Sam's own words contadict your claim Sam didn't want to hurt Bucky.
You allergic to context, or...?
You're only making yourself look bad.
I pointed out that the start of his movie mirrors winter soldier, and you came in talking about his wing getting ripped off .
We haven't seen Bucky's Vibranium arm put to full use yet due to him being nerfed in TFatWS but I'm sure he could match Sam Vibranium for Vibranium.
"damn this character lost a fight, and so will clearly always lose every fight, which makes them a bad character. I wish they had better superpowers so they would win every fight, then I would like them and ask daddy to buy me their funko pop"
And lets be serious. Steve was never in danger of losing a fist fight with any base level human. Its literally a bare fisted trained man against another trained man with the strength of 3 gorillas.
It made me think of the scene in Iron Man 3 where Rhodey has to pop out of the suit and fight everyone hand to hand. It was a cool scene and showed what he was capable of in hand to hand combat, but that was his last resort. It doesn’t make sense for tech users to have that be their plan A.
While Sam keeps alternating his wings and the shield just for the flashiness of it
I think this is the perfect example of fans not liking something and blaming in-universe lore instead of "how the movie was made"
like, seriously, I want you all to go back and watch that fight scene on Disney plus. It's terrible. It's slow, awkward and poorly shot. If it had been well-made, nobody would have a problem with Sam's superpowers, but it was so inert compared to Steve's scenes it made Sam look lame.
These fans just want to indulge in the self fantasy of lifting a car and jumping 15 feet. It’s “cool” so why wouldn’t Sam want to level up like we all do?
I will never understand how there are so many people who love characters like Hawkeye, Sam, and Widow. I want my superheroes to be super not regular.
And for the people who say “YeAh BuT iT’s AsPiRaTiOnAl.” It’s not aspirational. Nothing about these characters is attainable for regular people.
Sounds like they’re more up your alley since you like fiction so ridiculous it insults your intelligence.
Perhaps you’d be interested in a car movie where the regular heroes enter space in a vehicle with duck tape?
That a fact? I have a feeling no amount of smooth move shit would satisfy.
Side note. That’s his best suit, and I wish he’d stop being Cap purely to go back to it. Gorgeous modernization of the comic look.
Sam is fine without the serum. He is different from Steve because he flies. Sometimes this means he is outmatched in a fist-fight, but that's ok because it's good for your hero to not be OP.
If you don't like Sam as a character, I promise you its for reasons that have nothing to do with his superpowers.
"Sam is dealing with things that he wouldn't be able to deal with without the serum"
Ignoring the fact that Steve has the serum and there is NO SHOT that he would have survived Red Hulk. Would have gotten laid out immediately, OR been completely useless the second Hulk jumped away
I'd also like to add that in the comics there were other Captain America's that did not have the Serum to include Bucky who is not a Super Soldier in the comics. He was just peak human with a bionic arm and great assassin skills. No different than Clint Barton and many others.
The fights in BNW are poorly choreographed and imagined. Sam shouldve had no problem with 60 year old Sidewinder. And the fight in the beginning with his head henchman was worse. For some strange reason is sometimes a very proficient fighter and sometimes he's not. It simply doesn't make sense. We need to see Sam absolutely wreaking henchmen especially in his suit. Sometimes he's shown to be very capable, acrobatic, and agile. And others he's just not. I think a lot this is also due to the athleticism of Mackie. The Stunt man has to match the range of motion of the actor. A lot of the stuff we saw Steve do was so believable because Chris Evans has a dance background and is very flexible and agile. It's very easy to splice in cuts of him and his stunt man. Mackie has gone on record addressing his stiffness and that he "can't kick" so it hinders the stunt team effects.
I guess Sam's issue is as soon as he faces someone who Vibranium makes no difference against he's going to be in trouble. For example, I'd argue he wouldn't have done well against Sentry because being pummelled with a Vibranium fist didn't hurt that guy at all and he'd have just crushed the drones in seconds.
Also pays to remember Mackie is no spring chicken. He's pushing 50 now. Makes sense he might not be as athletic as he was in previous movies.
You earned nothing yourself. Give a random high-rank soldier with good morality vibranium, and it’s the same thing. Imagine if Batman got his gadgets from Star Labs, or Cyborg, or something, instead of making them himself. If the main thing that makes you a superhero is **not** made by you, then you don’t deserve it.
He just moved so slow. I get it he's a regular human but who cares this is a superhero movie. At that point he's not even peak physical condition, just a guy who works out a lot.
[scene](https://youtu.be/xx7afHUuREY?t=48) (:48 in)
The only skill Sam has is plot armor. He doesn't even have intelligence going for him. Its one of the poorest characterizations in the MCU.